Here are my comments related to the postings that I’ve received in Blog Entry 1 and by e-mail so far. --RBS
ms. a said... I agree that test prep takes away from real learning. On the Daily Show the other day Diane Ravitch said that "no student's favorite subject is test prep." Students can gain the reading and math skills they need to pass basic standards tests without drills of math and reading but instead well created curricula in science, literature, social studies that are designed to give them the reading and math skills they need to be proficient.
I love this idea of focusing on what is GOOD TEACHING and not what is the results on a test.
I love this idea of focusing on what is GOOD TEACHING and not what is the results on a test.
Reply: My major issue with test prep is it reflects a very narrow test performance rather than the ability to perform in a wider range of situations with thought and rigor. --RBS
Sara Nowak said... I completely agree with you that we have too much testing in our schools. I think it is funny how much time is spent on test prep and practice tests and the actual high stakes test itself. If all of that was removed from schools and teachers had the freedom to actually teach real content rather than practice test problems our schools might end up creating real thinkers rather than a group of students who become proficient at taking multiple choice tests....on the other I don't know if there are enough good teachers to fill our classroom so even if they were granted the freedom to really teach our students would they be equipped and motivated to do so.
Reply: A shortage of good teachers is always an issue. We have to build good teachers. All teachers need to find ways to develop themselves as professionals and intellectuals. Early childhood educators need to know much more about phonemic awareness, phonics, vocabulary, fluency, comprehension, mathematics, content in science and social studies, teaching strategies than most parents. Similarly secondary teachers need to know deeply about at least one content area and its connections to all the other content areas as well as a wide repertoire of teaching strategies. All teachers need to know about learning, children’s learning, assessment, motivation, and practical organization for classroom learning. They need to be professional learners who know applications of what they know in a variety of fields; for instance, the secondary mathematics teacher cannot be only an abstract mathematician; knowledge of how the ideas of mathematics are used throughout many areas of learning and knowing. --RBS
Darius M said... When you design a school that is free of testing, how will you meet the demands of the federal auditors that want to see immediate results?
Reply: We must resist the failing federal programs in education. More of this topic will come up in future postings. -- RBS
Larry said... I agree with a lot of your post, there is a need for reform. Before we remove test prep from classrooms across the country, the significance of the test needs to be scaled down. The test should be used as a measure for the level of support a student will receive and not a determinant on if a student will progress to the next grade level. Their is a tremendous amount of pressure fostered by the push for immediate results and teachers may be uncomfortable with the removal of test prep when the high stakes test is the determining factor on whether their students will move on to the next grade. So, before we do away with test prep, we must change the way we use testing data.
Reply: Good teachers must be able to show that their students are learning without resorting to standardized tests. Parents, teachers, administrators, and children must deliver documentation to the politicians and policy makers that standardized testing is not producing better learning. --RBS
LaBrian said... I want to be the person that says that standardized tests are not a problem and that we must have some sort of method to ensure that all students are receiving a quality education. However, I am a teacher, and I thoroughly detest the methodical way that I have to drill unimportant information into my students. There are many things that I could focus on right now that would be of much more assistance to my students than test preparation.
I work in a low-performing school, and many of my students cannot read. Most of the students who are able to read are below grade level. Then, there are the few who, through the help of their parents, are fabulous readers.
It sickens me that instead of remediating my students (and creating project-based learning opportunities for my high achievers), since there is no way our budget could ever cover an intensive reading program for all students, I am forced to focus on drilling test taking skills and strategies. I have asked countless individuals how they expect children to pass a state assessment when they do not possess the basic skills. As I'm sure you are aware, I get a crazy look. I have also gotten the ludicrous comment, "Well, people have graduated without basic skills, so we just want to make sure that they know strategies that will maximize their scores." I was shocked! All this time, I was thinking that we were here to prepare our students to become world leaders, doctors, lawyers, teachers...to be successful productive members of society. I guess I was wrong. We just want to get them to the next grade so that they can be someone else's problem.
I feel that if teachers are allowed to teach, and held accountable for the GROWTH of their students, many problems in education would cease. If I could remediate my seventh graders now, and the remediation can continue in eighth grade, they might make it to high school, college, adulthood. I feel that my role as a teacher is to engage, teach, and prepare my students for more than a test, a grade, or a subject. If I can't make sure they can READ, I can't do that. On so many levels, I agree with you.
I work in a low-performing school, and many of my students cannot read. Most of the students who are able to read are below grade level. Then, there are the few who, through the help of their parents, are fabulous readers.
It sickens me that instead of remediating my students (and creating project-based learning opportunities for my high achievers), since there is no way our budget could ever cover an intensive reading program for all students, I am forced to focus on drilling test taking skills and strategies. I have asked countless individuals how they expect children to pass a state assessment when they do not possess the basic skills. As I'm sure you are aware, I get a crazy look. I have also gotten the ludicrous comment, "Well, people have graduated without basic skills, so we just want to make sure that they know strategies that will maximize their scores." I was shocked! All this time, I was thinking that we were here to prepare our students to become world leaders, doctors, lawyers, teachers...to be successful productive members of society. I guess I was wrong. We just want to get them to the next grade so that they can be someone else's problem.
I feel that if teachers are allowed to teach, and held accountable for the GROWTH of their students, many problems in education would cease. If I could remediate my seventh graders now, and the remediation can continue in eighth grade, they might make it to high school, college, adulthood. I feel that my role as a teacher is to engage, teach, and prepare my students for more than a test, a grade, or a subject. If I can't make sure they can READ, I can't do that. On so many levels, I agree with you.
Reply: There is no remedial education without artificial standards imposed without regard to children’s knowledge and ability to perform in real situations (i.e., non-testing situations). Good teachers are subversive of standardized curricular approaches; they know where their students function and how to make continuous progress, but moving a child whose age is appropriate for 9th grade but who performs on a 2nd grade academic level is an impossible task of any teacher to tackle in one year – that sort of learning takes many years. The idea of one year of progress in one year is anathema to most learners because many should move much faster and others need motivations and careful teaching that takes more time to learn than average. The idea that teachers in a few hours per day can fill in dramatic gaps between high performing students and low performing students is fallacious. Children need experiences and motivation to use words and ideas, to become literate with narrative and expository writing, to write about their thoughts and experiences, to think algebraically and geometrically, to find technologies that motivate and extend their knowledge of the world, to become active participants in their communities, to develop a morality that functions when some other is not watching, to be reasonably safe and healthy in a world filled with risks and dangers that cannot be eliminated, to counteract intolerance and idiocy based on ignorance, and to solve problems that are not well formed and have many layers of complexity. --RBS
E-mailed ones
From: Kristy Tsou <ktsou@sthpk-12.net>
To: ewilli@lsu.edu
Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 7:47:18 PM
Subject: 5880 Reply
While I think too much emphasis is placed on test scores and test prep for students in terms of evaluating teachers, I am not quite ready to accept a system that relies on the vagueness of Good Teaching Initiatives. I doubt there are a multitude of individuals in the teaching profession that go to work daily thinking they are poor teachers. Examining materials and becoming involved in multi-media works are investment strategies for students, however, the skills students learn in testing situations will assist those students in a variety of ways in future academic ventures. Furthermore, testing allows-- if done properly--students across the nation to understand their knowledge base and skills set with their national peers. Great teachers can teach material in an interesting manner and test-taking skills simultaneously.
Kristy Tsou
Pre-K Teacher
To: ewilli@lsu.edu
Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 7:47:18 PM
Subject: 5880 Reply
While I think too much emphasis is placed on test scores and test prep for students in terms of evaluating teachers, I am not quite ready to accept a system that relies on the vagueness of Good Teaching Initiatives. I doubt there are a multitude of individuals in the teaching profession that go to work daily thinking they are poor teachers. Examining materials and becoming involved in multi-media works are investment strategies for students, however, the skills students learn in testing situations will assist those students in a variety of ways in future academic ventures. Furthermore, testing allows-- if done properly--students across the nation to understand their knowledge base and skills set with their national peers. Great teachers can teach material in an interesting manner and test-taking skills simultaneously.
Kristy Tsou
Pre-K Teacher
Reply: Why would you think that GTI is vague when all you’ve read is the introduction? The only way to be a good teacher is to become one; that means setting goals and achieving them for self and students. DO NOT DENIGRATE YOUR PEERS! Support them with good ideas and the intellectual stimulation that gets everyone improving. Administrators should do the same, but they should also follow the processes to remove incompetents from the profession of teaching. Doing the same-old same-old is never enough, so I agree that using multimedia and engagement strategies is a must.
“[T]esting allows-- if done properly--students across the nation to understand their knowledge base and skills set with their national peers. ” – THIS IS WRONG. There is not attempt to understand knowledge as part of the testing process. The current testing mania DEFINES knowledge as the score on the test – something that I completely and utterly reject. I would replace all testing with performance-based assessment tasks that grow out of the lived curriculum in the classroom, but I also recognize that the financial requirements of the testing companies will keep them in business because politicians get chunks of money for their campaigns from those testing companies. --RBS
From: Subash Mohanty <smohanty@sthpk-12.net>
To: Ewilli@lsu.edu
Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 7:46:13 PM
Subject: Comments on Good Teaching Initiative Richard Speaking Blog
I pretty much do agree with the idea of,"Teachers who are smart, ............the learner and the background". I do support the idea of the dark side of the education system as well. However there should be some kind of assessment system to evaluate the level of your student learning. Whether you are using technology, or any other multi-modal learning style. These assessments not only say about the student learning but also tells about your planning for future goal. I mean which area you need to focus more than the other, the pupil need, and the focused goal. Whether any topic needs to be re-tought.
Subash C. Mohanty.
To: Ewilli@lsu.edu
Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 7:46:13 PM
Subject: Comments on Good Teaching Initiative Richard Speaking Blog
I pretty much do agree with the idea of,"Teachers who are smart, ............the learner and the background". I do support the idea of the dark side of the education system as well. However there should be some kind of assessment system to evaluate the level of your student learning. Whether you are using technology, or any other multi-modal learning style. These assessments not only say about the student learning but also tells about your planning for future goal. I mean which area you need to focus more than the other, the pupil need, and the focused goal. Whether any topic needs to be re-tought.
Subash C. Mohanty.
Reply: I’m not against assessment or evaluation. They’re necessary. I am against the current testing mania because it interferes with student learning and narrows the definition of knowledge to test scores.--RBS
From: Alicia Kielmovitch <akielmovitch@sthpk-12.net>
To: ewilli@lsu.edu
Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 7:44:12 PM
Subject: Comment for Speaker Blog
This was in response to his 2nd entry: The Dark Side
Hello Mr. Speaker,
I am young teacher in my 2nd year of teaching. I'm alternatively
certified and working at an elementary school in a high-needs community.
I found all of what you said in this entry very interesting, primarily
because I agree with most of what you are saying. Just from my short
time in the educational field, I have already seen way too much time
wasted on test prep and teaching. Instead of teaching and developing
students with ideas, curiosity, and questions, teachers focus solely on
who will meet the standards and who will fail on these state tests.
Legitimate teaching time (or remediation time for those students who
need it) is often sacrificed for test prep and practice test time.
Students live and die by these tests academically. I attended a private
elementary school, because my parents wanted all of those expectations
you stated for me. I was immersed in performing arts and the multiple
intelligence theory from Kindergarten. More importantly, because I
attended private school, I was not subjected to standardized tests until
I attended public high school. As a teacher, one of my primary goals is
to develop the same love of learning that I was imbued with at such a
young age. Not necessarily the love of school, but just the sheer
enjoyment to learn new things. This is something I feel students in my
school lack and severely need.
The place where I disagree with you is how to fix this problem. Because
our educational system has become so entangled with standardized
testing, we cannot just simply tell districts to abandon everything they
have been doing for the past 10 years. That will only hurt the problem
more. Although your solution could be used, we need to figure out a
more long-term solution that will accommodate the status quo and the
possible changes. Unfortunately, this cannot happen overnight, but
through “good teaching” and a slow turn-around from the strict testing
stance, students will begin to celebrate the mere acquisition of
knowledge once more.
- Alicia K.
EDCI 5880
To: ewilli@lsu.edu
Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 7:44:12 PM
Subject: Comment for Speaker Blog
This was in response to his 2nd entry: The Dark Side
Hello Mr. Speaker,
I am young teacher in my 2nd year of teaching. I'm alternatively
certified and working at an elementary school in a high-needs community.
I found all of what you said in this entry very interesting, primarily
because I agree with most of what you are saying. Just from my short
time in the educational field, I have already seen way too much time
wasted on test prep and teaching. Instead of teaching and developing
students with ideas, curiosity, and questions, teachers focus solely on
who will meet the standards and who will fail on these state tests.
Legitimate teaching time (or remediation time for those students who
need it) is often sacrificed for test prep and practice test time.
Students live and die by these tests academically. I attended a private
elementary school, because my parents wanted all of those expectations
you stated for me. I was immersed in performing arts and the multiple
intelligence theory from Kindergarten. More importantly, because I
attended private school, I was not subjected to standardized tests until
I attended public high school. As a teacher, one of my primary goals is
to develop the same love of learning that I was imbued with at such a
young age. Not necessarily the love of school, but just the sheer
enjoyment to learn new things. This is something I feel students in my
school lack and severely need.
The place where I disagree with you is how to fix this problem. Because
our educational system has become so entangled with standardized
testing, we cannot just simply tell districts to abandon everything they
have been doing for the past 10 years. That will only hurt the problem
more. Although your solution could be used, we need to figure out a
more long-term solution that will accommodate the status quo and the
possible changes. Unfortunately, this cannot happen overnight, but
through “good teaching” and a slow turn-around from the strict testing
stance, students will begin to celebrate the mere acquisition of
knowledge once more.
- Alicia K.
EDCI 5880
Reply: “[W]e cannot just simply tell districts to abandon everything they have been doing for the past 10 years”. I disagree. I believe that parents, teachers, administrators, and children need to do exactly this. The standardized testing every year and the mania for other tests must be stopped. All of us need to say this over and over again to politicians and district administrators. More and more damage is being done through the overreliance on test that ever before. I’m not interested in the quick fixes and the “one-size-fits-all” solutions that politicians and policy wonks provide (even when they say they don’t want “one-size-fits-all” solutions). --RBS
From: Theresa Griffin <tgriffin@sthpk-12.net>
To: Ewilli@lsu.edu
Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 7:41:54 PM
Subject: Response to Richard B Speaker Jr. Entry 1
I agree that high quality teachers should be in every school. When I speak of high quality, this include teachers who are willing to go above and beyond. I know from experience that nothing can take the place of a warm-body teacher.
As for as assessment, I can't imagine not having assessments. Assessments are valuable tools for finding students instructional levels. But the problem seems to be test preparation. I feel that if the child has been given the best education possible, passing an assessment should not be a problem.
5880
Theresa Griffin
To: Ewilli@lsu.edu
Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 7:41:54 PM
Subject: Response to Richard B Speaker Jr. Entry 1
I agree that high quality teachers should be in every school. When I speak of high quality, this include teachers who are willing to go above and beyond. I know from experience that nothing can take the place of a warm-body teacher.
As for as assessment, I can't imagine not having assessments. Assessments are valuable tools for finding students instructional levels. But the problem seems to be test preparation. I feel that if the child has been given the best education possible, passing an assessment should not be a problem.
5880
Theresa Griffin
Reply: I’m not against assessment or evaluation; I’m against the testing mania and the time spent prepping for the tests. I want students to perform real tasks as part of their learning. They have to know that the tasks are real and meaningful and become engaged in motivated learning to achieve their performances. How do you know that a child can read at a 3rd grade level? What does his/her oral performance mean? Why do fluency and accuracy measures fail to provide sufficient information? What else must be included to get a picture of this child as a literate member of a school community? Why must writing be included in literacy development and part of the reading program rather than a separate entity? Why must science, social studies, art, problem solving (mathematical and real life), health, physical education, music, literature, poetry, drama, film, theater, and games be included in literacy development and its assessment? Why must literacy development be included in all content teaching? Why must cultural knowledge and processes be included in all school curricula?--RBS
From: Becky Louque <belouque@stjames.k12.la.us>
To: "ewilli@lsu.edu" <ewilli@lsu.edu>
Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 7:33:04 PM
Subject:
To: "ewilli@lsu.edu" <ewilli@lsu.edu>
Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 7:33:04 PM
Subject:
A "good school" is not a building, the playground equipmemt, the amount of technology, or even the types of meals given. A "good school" happens when all stakeholders (students, parents, community members, faculty and staff) work together to achieve a common goal. The goal should be providing the best education for each student to move each and every student to their highest potential.
I believe that God made us all different. It is the teachers' responsibility to find the method in which reaches each child to mold into the person they will become in the future.
We must use all information about children to make informed decisions. Without information, we are "diagosing" students without vital information. This information comes from a variety of sources. Testing should be just a piece of the whole picture.
We need to shape the young minds as best as we can for they are our future. "You can give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he will eat for a lifetime." (unknown)
Becky B. Louque
Reply: I agree with your comments about the good school! “The goal should be providing the best education for each student to move each and every student to their highest potential. ” Testing does not help meet this goal. Time learning, good teaching, and appropriate assessment do strive towards this goal.
I disagree that any tests of the more traditional types need to be used in any curriculum. They are used out of laziness and lack of inspiration. They are used because they have been used before. How do I know what the learner can do with the vocabulary and content if knowledge is defined as a score on a test? Here is my key proposition: knowledge is the ability to use information, ideas, language, and data to perform tasks in community settings. --RBS
From: Donna Jackson <djackson@sthpk-12.net>
To: ewilli@lsu.edu
Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 7:39:14 PM
Subject: Richard B. Speaker, Jr.
I do agree that testing and test preparation is taking too much time away from the essential processes of education: teaching and learning. I do believe that we are focusing more on testing rather than looking at the individual child to see whether or not he or she has made any academic growth. The focus should be more on the child and not the school as a whole.
We are teaching a test rather than teaching a child.
Where should our focus be?
My focus will always be the child.
To: ewilli@lsu.edu
Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 7:39:14 PM
Subject: Richard B. Speaker, Jr.
I do agree that testing and test preparation is taking too much time away from the essential processes of education: teaching and learning. I do believe that we are focusing more on testing rather than looking at the individual child to see whether or not he or she has made any academic growth. The focus should be more on the child and not the school as a whole.
We are teaching a test rather than teaching a child.
Where should our focus be?
My focus will always be the child.
Donna Jackson
Reply: The main workers in the curriculum are the teacher and children in a learning community. All others are peripheral. While we certainly need clean, well-lighted places for teacher and children to form their learning communities and we tell children their value through the quality of their classroom locations and materials, the key is always a focus on the child as learner rather than the materials and the material environment. If the classroom is impoverished, the community sends the message to the child that she/he is not valued, so the teacher must counteract this message through using observation, engaging activities, and the community as learning resources. No canned material or test will provide the learners with the experiences they need. Engaging the child in learning activities with talk, content, and excitement can lead to motivated life-long learning.--RBS
From: Kim Dunn <kimdunn@abrschools.org>
To: "ewilli@lsu.edu" <ewilli@lsu.edu>
Cc: Kim Dunn <kimdunn@abrschools.org>
Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 7:28:30 PM
Subject: Posting
To: "ewilli@lsu.edu" <ewilli@lsu.edu>
Cc: Kim Dunn <kimdunn@abrschools.org>
Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 7:28:30 PM
Subject: Posting
We need assessments in order to obtain data. We, as educators, rely on test data to drive our instruction. With no or lack of test, how would we know what to reteach? How would we know if the students are mastering the state standards? I cannot imagine just teaching and not testing. Wouldn't we waste a lot of time if we taught concepts students already knew ? The amount of testing should be determined by the needs of the students. Regular benchmark can be scheduled by districts and any additionally testing should be determined by the instructional leader of that campus.
KJD 5880
Kim J. Dunn, M.Ed
Reply: More is coming up on this. We do not need to rely on test data to drive instruction; we need performance data of a different sort. The score on a test does not indicate knowledge or process. Reteaching should be based on observational data from classroom performances, not on testing data analyzed outside the school. I submit that the score on a test does not tell you whether a child has masters a concept; it merely tells you a score on the tests. We already waste time teaching concepts that children already know because we hold children in grade level material when they could go beyond it with a model of continuous progress. The amount of testing has gotten completely out of hand and other methods of assessment and evaluation need to be emphasized. Regular benchmarks are now being used to hurt children, teachers, parents, and administrators rather than providing them with useful information. The cycle of punishment is having a detrimental effect on child welfare and the allocation of resources. My radicalism is showing and will show more! Of course, tests are punishments!
The teachers are the instructional leaders; administrators are not usually competent in that role because they do not understand curriculum and they are not involved in learning processes. The curriculum is not a program or set of texts, or set of standards; the curriculum is what engages the children and the teacher in the classroom. The ideal administrator would be building a curriculum for the continued learning of his/her teachers which would include performance assessment rather than testing.--RBS
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